Curse

Kumu Honua · Mar 06, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

I read perfectly well, thanks. Definition: nerf = render less effective. Fixing the AI to add scattering will render RoJ less effective. Less effective = nerf. Get it? Critical thinking skills, FTW.

Why should RoJ be the only AE Damage over time ability that doesn't cause scatter?

All other AE Damage over time abilites cause scatter reactions. RoJ should not be an exception to that.

Painbringer · Mar 06, 2009, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Olias where are you ????????????????????

* Improved Hero AI for the Necromancer spell Death Nova to reduce the use of this spell when not in combat.

Thanks for the change

BrettM · Mar 06, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

All other AE Damage over time abilites cause scatter reactions. RoJ should not be an exception to that.

Good point. Arkantos should have made that point, and I should have acknowledged the justice in it and suggested fixing the bug while not returning smiters to the PvE ghetto ... oh, wait, he did and I did. Hmmm.

I agree RoJ is bugged. I agree that it should not be an exception to the rule. I agree that fixing bugs is a good thing. Okay? Can we put that behind us and consider the point I was trying to make?

Will you agree that viable smiters are also a good thing, adding another choice of ways to play the game? And that the bug is the only thing that is currently making them viable in general PvE? And that fixing the bug without compensating by changes to other skills will make smiting a vastly less-desirable option than it has become?

Neez · Mar 06, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Primal Rage: increased recharge to 15 seconds.

(...) Even though Primal Rage makes you take double damage while in effect, players could easily change to another stance when threatened. We like this tactic, but the skill's extremely short recharge also made it too easy to immediately activate Primal Rage again when the threat had passed. To make stance swapping a more effective drawback to using this skill, we increased the recharge time.

Wait, so the "double damage" wasn't an effective drawback in first hand?

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, i see! Primal Rage was handicapped, since it only had one hand, so you added the second hand drawback to turn it in a common/despised Elite again. You couldn't allow handicaps to steal the spotlight, so you placed them where they belong.

Brilliant, at least.

Nightow · Mar 06, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Will you agree that viable smiters are also a good thing, adding another choice of ways to play the game? And that the bug is the only thing that is currently making them viable in general PvE? And that fixing the bug without compensating by changes to other skills will make smiting a vastly less-desirable option than it has become?

If you're going to add another choice of ways to play the game (pve-wise), why not restore some of the ways that have been nerfed due to pvp updates? Why should a communing rit based on defensive spirits be nerfed for pvp-related reasons while paragons can offer similar defensive benefits just by spamming one or two shouts? This sounds like a case of self contradiction, saying that you can play the game one way but when you want to do the same thing using different mechanics it's not allowed.

Coraline Jones · Mar 06, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Will you agree that viable smiters are also a good thing, adding another choice of ways to play the game? And that the bug is the only thing that is currently making them viable in general PvE? And that fixing the bug without compensating by changes to other skills will make smiting a vastly less-desirable option than it has become?

I'm glad that somebody is finally talking some real sense about RoJ. The fact that it's broken doesn't even matter. The reason that ANet won't fix it is because, as it stands, RoJ hurts absolutely nobody.

For high-level PvP, like HA or GvG, RoJ is a huge joke. Nobody is going to seriously let a monk stand there and cast a slow-casting spell, and then afterwards be dumb enough to stand in the huge pillar of light and burn themselves up.

For farming purposes, RoJ is totally useless. A single RoJ caster cannot kill anything by themselves. They still have to work in a team as a smiter has poor survival capability by themselves. Also, all it takes is a monster running some kind of anti-caster spell like Obsidian Flesh or Spell Breaker and all your smiters have to stand there and wait for it to wear off to cast anything.

These two reasons are good enough for ArenaNet to put the skill on the "who gives a crap" list. If gold farmers can't use it and it's not being exploited in tournaments, then seriously... Who gives a crap.

For general PvE, RoJ is useful, but it's certainly not the most unbeatable build in the game. There's plenty of equally-broken builds including Cryway or Discord spam. Actually, the AOE damage is so narrow that you often catch just two or three targets in the damage beam under normal use, and the spell has a slow cast and a long recharge. If it was that great, then you sure don't see many people in Temple of the Ages saying: "LFG RoJ smiter for speed clear".

In fact, the only reason why people seem to complain about it is because of its heavy use in JQ. As for those competitive arenas (low-end PvP), the real reason why it works so well is because people are so bad at it. Seriously. In missions like JQ or FA, hardly anybody plays as a team. People run around trying to death-match any player or NPC they see, and when they see a solo player effortlessly capture one of their shrines (as they stand there like an idiot), then they cry for a nerf. In my opinion, JQ and FA's biggest problem is not a so-called "broken" build, but the horrible quality of the players playing it. Also, leechers and bots have pretty much figured out that ArenaNet won't ever ban them from griefing so they just enter over and over.

AnClar · Mar 06, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I dunno....I'm really of two minds about the Read the Wind nerf. First, I'm unhappy that one of the few 4x4 reasonable Ranger builds for DPS has been made less effective. Rangers had never really been good dmg dealers and it was fun to finally be able to hold one's own defensively and put out respectable DPS at the same time. That said, after playing the new RtW, removal of the +dmg ain't as terrible as it looked at first. Yeah I miss the extra dmg but I can still kill stuff reasonably fast. All in all it could have been a lot worse...like hitting BA.

Necromas · Mar 06, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neez

Wait, so the "double damage" wasn't an effective drawback in first hand?

It really wasn't, anyone with decent reaction time would cancel it immediately and take almost no extra damage, and then switch back into the stance at their leisure and go right back into fight as if nothing had happened.

It went from...

Advantages:
-5e
-33% IAS AND 25% move speed (no other stance, elite or otherwise, does this)
-Can immediately recover from cancel stance or stance removal

Disadvantages:
-Have to use cancel stance if threatened

to...

Advantages:
-5e
-33% IAS AND 25% move speed

Disadvantages:
-Have to use cancel stance if threatened

They saw the skill had a disadvantage that was not as significant as they had intended, so they fixed it by adding a 15 second recharge. The stance is still very powerful while the warrior is not under pressure, the only difference is that now putting pressure on the warrior and forcing him to cancel stance will actually have an impact on that warriors ability to go right back into the fight at full power. Basically, the 'nerf' makes it so the other team actually has a reason to attack the warriors that are using a stance which makes them take more damage.

The other side effect is that low strength builds can no longer use it for sustained pressure damage just by pumping out enough energy into it, but I don't really see the big issue in making a strength elite require the warrior to invest in strength to maintain (1-3 seconds of downtime is acceptable).

moriz · Mar 06, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

i think prage should get the old 33% IMS back. after all, since it's now easy to force a warrior out of prage, that warrior better be damn powerful while under it.

elk · Mar 06, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Olias where are you ????????????????????

* Improved Hero AI for the Necromancer spell Death Nova to reduce the use of this spell when not in combat.

Thanks for the change

Will have to test it out but this doesn't sound like a good thing.

One of the good points of the minon bomber (and that's what I think you and I are both thinking about) is to have them all running in with Death Nova on. If the AI isn't going to start applying Death Nova until they are in combat, this will reduce the mob thinning effect at the start of each encounter. I'd prefer that the minons run in and help reduce the mob size or hp of the mob while applying conditions. Tends to work nice with the sab/discord builds. I'd imagine in most HM situations, the minons would be squished prior to having Death Nova applied therefore minimizing it's effect.

Again will require some testing but this sounds unfortunate

elk

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 06, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i think prage should get the old 33% IMS back. after all, since it's now easy to force a warrior out of prage, that warrior better be damn powerful while under it.

I would have liked to see it at maybe 8 second recharge, with the way it is now, they killed it off. Abit, it's better for the game overall in my eyes and the skill should have never seen play in the way it did to begin with. Anyone who was playing with it for the last 2 months, go put frenzy on your bar and notice how things seem to be toned down now, or in line with the rest of the game

Dronte · Mar 06, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by the savage nornbear

Goodbye rangers. [[Read the wind] and [[flail].

Lol dont be bad.. BA was an overpowered turret build, the REAL manly rangers still out there.

White Halo · Mar 06, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I probably did miss the whole smiters boon era b/c i stopped playing for about 4-5 months between 2006-2007 and after I came back was mostly playing pve. But the last viable smiteing build I could think of was air of enchantment and that was a long time ago so idk I just think they should make smiteing more of an option I mean its an entire set of skills that were rarely used if at all in conjunction with anything as a monk. I'm not talking about assacasters. Also like I said Pve its not bad but I can see y its OP in pvp I said it b4 pve/pvp would be good. Seriously though I remember way back when if u entered RA/TA/AB and u said u were a smiteing monk u would either get laughed out or flamed out.

Arkantos · Mar 06, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Haruki II

One of my favorite ranger skills unnecessarily nerfed into oblivion. Flail I get, it makes sense, this however just doesn't. gg.

Oh well, I can't play at the moment anyway. Apparently I was suspended for racial slurs.

It wasn't unnecessary. I guess you have to (know balance in) PvP to understand why it was nerfed.

Quote:

I'm glad that somebody is finally talking some real sense about RoJ. The fact that it's broken doesn't even matter. The reason that ANet won't fix it is because, as it stands, RoJ hurts absolutely nobody.

So as long as it isn't hurting anybody, it's ok that it's bugged? I like your logic.

moriz · Mar 06, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

smiter's boon still works in pve, and is still one of the most powerful build templates you can run.

dilan155 · Mar 06, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

all right people seriously enough QQ, there have been like 3 updates where the majority of the people were positive towards it. this wasn't too bad, compared to some of their update. i specially love the aura of restoration buff, the nerfs are actually not that bad.

BrettM · Mar 06, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilan155

all right people seriously enough QQ, there have been like 3 updates where the majority of the people were positive towards it. this wasn't too bad, compared to some of their update. i specially love the aura of restoration buff, the nerfs are actually not that bad.

On the PvE side, I don't have any real problems with the changes, but I have my doubts about the AoR buff and the change in the AI for Death Nova. I see no need to QQ about those until I'm sure if I'm hurt for real as opposed to theorycrafting, though.

Gargle Blaster · Mar 06, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

the problem with illusion of haste is not the duration of cripple... the problem is that the casting stops you dead in your tracks every 11 sec ... making it faster just to walk distances than chaining haste...

you want people to use this skill you have to make it a stance... the crippled duration don't matter.

Age · Mar 06, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Turret rangers most commonly used BA, tbh.

And have fun stopping PS sins from killing you Monks. You're only defense just got nerfed :/

They are sill usefull and one stance hasn't been touched.Don't forget what about those who use /A maybe PS need to be relooked at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White HaloI was reading threw this thread and saw this. I was like wow you read my mind. I totals agree with you they finely made a nessisary change that made smiteing an option for monks. Everyone who doesnt play a monk is comenting and qqing but what else does smite give as far as viability in PvE? 55 monking, 600/smite lol? I can finaly compete with an ele as far as aoe dps goes. Takeing roj away and not buffing any of the useless skills that made me rather healbot then smite would be stupid. If your going to make any kind of argument then changeing it to a pve/pvp skill doing less aoe damage or increasing recharge, I haven't given it much thought seeing as how doing that would even be pushing it. In pvp its so easy to interupt the only way it would be viable in pvp with either of those nerfs would be arcain echo and thats so easy to interupt as well. So thats y I think its useless to nerf it.

I have never noticed a change with RoJ when they first changed it as well as the scatter.

Kumu Honua · Mar 06, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

In fact, the only reason why people seem to complain about it is because of its heavy use in JQ. As for those competitive arenas (low-end PvP), the real reason why it works so well is because people are so bad at it. Seriously. In missions like JQ or FA, hardly anybody plays as a team. People run around trying to death-match any player or NPC they see, and when they see a solo player effortlessly capture one of their shrines (as they stand there like an idiot), then they cry for a nerf. In my opinion, JQ and FA's biggest problem is not a so-called "broken" build, but the horrible quality of the players playing it. Also, leechers and bots have pretty much figured out that ArenaNet won't ever ban them from griefing so they just enter over and over.

So just because you consider something to be low end, and that everyone who plays is "bad", a broken game mechanic should remain broken?

Who gives a crap? All the people who enjoy playing Jade Quarry and/or Fort Aspenwood. That alone is good enough reason to fix a broken game mechanic.

Especially if it doesn't matter for the rest of PvP because it's a joke. If it's such a joke then a change to it won't matter at all.